A Facebook discussion/argument about the current state of Poland and Hungary

Me: Why are all my favorite countries going backwards? USA, Poland, Hungary. Damn you democracy letting the uninformed and idiots vote. Carry the torch and save us from ourselves France and Germany. And New Zealand just keep minding your own business and being awesome down in your corner.

Them: Is there something wrong with democracy in Poland? Oh wait, you mean those fake news? I wish the democracy was over, unfortunately it is sound and safe in my country.

Me: I am not in Poland at the moment so I cannot speak first hand about it but my other friends there disagree with you. And I’m sorry to hear that “fake news” has spread beyond the USA. So since the Economist, news channels, and my friends are all lying what is the real story?  I can speak first hand about Hungary becoming a shitty place. Everything the news and Economist report about my new home are true, so I find it difficult to believe they are lying about Poland having a shitty government. It is difficult to believe that the EU is making stuff up about Poland as well. A simple rule of thumb is that if the whole world is telling you that you are wrong then you probably are.

Them: well, many friends of mine both in Poland and in Hungary disagree with you too but we are probably “bigots”, “fascists” and you tell me what else, as the one enlightened by the Economist and CNN. Oh, you probably still believe in so called “independent” media.  “Eat shit, millions of flies can’t be wrong”

Me:  That escalated quickly. I was actually asking your opinion of what the lies are in Poland. Your response doesn’t help your point much. Plus a comparison of flies liking shit to humans judging humans is well played and effective. Excellent job of having an enlightened conversation. I have always considered you a friend and don’t mind if you have different beliefs. But you must be able to defend them instead of being aggressive and stupid.

Them:  Please, think independently. Don’t follow fake news just because the source makes itself look “cool”. You can do better than that. Read your comment on “thumb rule” again and then read mine so you’ll understand my point. Hopefully. I’m not saying that Polish government is great, I personally didn’t vote for them as they’re socialists and I am clearly not. But the whole furious attack from media, obviously independent, (the fact that they represent Germany’s political interest is a total coincidence and don’t even dare to think differently) is just outraging. The same with the UE institutions. They’re so ultra democratic, right? So why they can’t stand a democratically elected government, still, even now, supported by vast majority of Polish people? How does it work? Democracy is when all goes smoothly like Germany wants but when the majority of citizens in another country wants something else, it’s a threat to democracy? Erdogan in Turkey, if needed by the UE, is ok, he’s a very nice guy, respecting democratic rules and so on, but in Poland, where everybody is free to express his/her opinion and protest against whatever he/she pleases, democracy is in danger? Our government is finally trying to kick some mafias’ butts the opposition is throwing a tantrum simply because they’re loosing their privileges, that’s all. People, get a life! The UE should focus on solving its real problems. The West is unable to protect their own citizens from stupid attacks, but focuses on “national egoisms” in Eastern Europe instead.

Them:  Nobody respects or likes Erdogan, but right now he fills a need of the EU so they put up with him. It isn’t exactly a bombshell that countries and people do what is in their best interest at the moment, even if it makes them hypocritical. But Turkey is not part of the EU. Poland is, and Poland is not following EU rules, which are quite an important part of being a member. And that is why the EU is not “minding its own business”. If Poles do not want to follow the rules they should give back all the EU money they received, exit the union, and take their chances with Russia. That is an extreme example and I believe not what most Poles would want, but hopefully it gets my meaning across. Poland is EU business. But this is all vague chit-chat. I am still interested in the fake news part of your belief. Please pick any Economist story from the past year and tell me exactly what was false in it. Facts only please, no “some people said”, or “some people believe”. Remember that just because you don’t agree with something doesn’t make it “fake news”.

Them:  Sorry but I’ll pass here. I simply cannot argue with someone copy-pasting already digested media coverages, ready to use, without need to question them. It’d be an easy job for you as you’re constantly being provided with what to think and say. That’s why I’m so much agains the democracy as it’s just too easy to manipulate the public opinion. My tip: take extra care whenever in an article you see words like “nationalism”, “fascism”, “far-right” and other such commonly misused terms (often by your beloved the Economist to which “far-right” is virtually everything by now), especially if they come from sources defending “the only right opinions an intelligent, elite part of the society is expected to have”. If something is making you feel angry or outraged, it because it’s meant to do it. And regarding not following EU rules, don’t bother yourself with Poland, where Poles themselves want changes and support their government, which doesn’t have any implications on the other EU countries at all. Look what Germany is doing, accepting (inviting!) thousands of people from outside of the UE, without checking who they are and consulting other UE members. By not accepting them we (Poles, Hungarians etc) are the ones respecting the EU rules. Regarding leaving the EU and giving the money back, if we do so, will Germany give back the money they actually made in Poland? If the Economist and the other “enlightened” ones kindly shed the light on this topic and how many local businesses went bankrupt, instead of insisting that the EU cares so much about the democracy and wellbeing of Poles in general, let me know.  and regarding fake news: first thing coming to my mind, could you show me the Economist’s explanation on why they’re calling PiS (Law and Justice, the ruling party) as “far-right” and “winning the election because of spreading conspiracy theories” (the Economist, just after the elections and at least 3 times later), which theories PiS is spreading, what makes the Economist think they’re conspiracy ones? Being professionals they must have given some examples and clarifications, right? It must be me who missed that part. Obviously, the current situation is also explained in details, with all the historical background on how Polish juridical system has been formed after the communist era, with all the corruption scandals and other reasons which led to the current situation. Or they skipped that part as it would be just too long to read? Or maybe they just don’t want to touch it as the opposition, backing the corrupt judges, is pro German? Just a few things to keep in mind while watching news next time.

Me:  It is amazing how the whole world has split into two sides and cannot discuss or have moderate opinions. Please stop with the vague rhetoric and let us pick one topic to discuss. How about PiS and the Economist calling them far-right. They say this because the government is passing laws to exert control over the media, civil service, prosecutor’s office, police, and other offices, which in a democracy should be independent. Is this true or not? A simple yes or no please. Is the government trying to control and influence these institutions. And I do not remember reading that the Economist calls them far-right. I believe they say that the government is leaning to the far-right or heading that direction. I haven’t looked it up yet but will go through my old issues to check. And I’m sorry if you think so but Poland is no longer an independent country. It is part of the EU. It wasn’t forced upon you and you get the benefits of it so suck it up and accept the drawbacks as well. EU law says you must accept refugees to ease the burden on Italy and others so accept the damn refugees or fight to keep them out in EU court, but you cannot just refuse not to take them in. No picking and choosing what rules you like and which you don’t. It is all or none. An exact parallel is with the Muslim ban that Trump pushed through. It is ridiculous, sad, and illegal but it is currently law and being enforced while it goes through the court system. Sadly instead of going through the courts Poland and Hungary just refuse to take immigrants. So the system is still working in the USA(thankfully), but not in Hungary or Poland.  If you could explain to me exactly where the news is lying about Poland I will change my opinion and accept the Poland is doing great, but vague statements about Germany, the EU, and fake news are not convincing me.

No response from them……

 

 

 

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